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阿尔泰语系：世界九大语系之一，分布在西起土耳其，东到日本；南起中国，北抵俄罗斯的广大区域。主要语言有土耳其语、维吾尔语、蒙古语、鄂伦春语、朝鲜语、满语、日语等。

汉藏语系：世界九大语系之一，一般归为四个语族，即汉语语族、侗泰语族、苗瑶语族和藏缅语族共计约250种语言，按使用人数匡算，是仅次于印欧语系的第二大语系。在语言学界，普遍认为汉藏语系内部研究还不够彻底。

苏州人在“讲外语”，根本听不懂

如果有人告诉你，吴语不属于汉语，你会相信么？相信大多数人都会说：怎么可能！不过刚到苏州的外地人在听到苏州人对话时常常会惊讶：苏州人说话的语速语调怎么有点像在说外语，根本听不懂！2000年初，周晨在几经论证，推断“吴语属阿尔泰语系而非属汉语”时，他自己也几乎都不敢相信这一论点，但平时积淀的一点一滴的证据告诉他：吴语并不是出自汉藏语系中的汉语一脉，它同维吾尔语、蒙古语、满语乃至日语、韩语等同出自阿尔泰语系一脉。

周晨，苏州人，苏州大学外国语学院日语系一名普通大学生。说其普通，其实他也有与其他人不同之处：精通英语、日语，选修过韩语，自学过维吾尔语，现在对阿尔泰语系的语言都有所涉猎，是一个对语言极端痴迷的语言学爱好者。周晨对记者说：他提出“吴方言不属于汉语”观点并不是想哗众取宠，而是自己四年研究得出的看法和结论。而这一结论一旦成立，将颠覆目前语言学界公认的“吴方言属于汉语一个分支”的传统论点。

周晨的部分语言学研究资料

一个普通大学生的发现和求证历程

一个普普通通的大学在校生竟要颠覆一个语言学界几乎公认的理论，咋听起来似乎天方夜潭般有趣，耐人寻味。这话还得从头说起。刚上初中那会儿，周晨对英语产生了浓厚的兴趣，学而优研，周晨不再满足课堂内所学的外语知识，买外语学习资料书来看成了周晨中学时期的爱好，高中时期一个偶然的机会，周晨在看一本介绍《字母史》的书籍后买来了一本《世界文字发展史》。也许是因为文字与语言方方面面的特殊关系，周晨在对文字方面的学习中逐渐萌生了学习研究语言学的东西。

周晨考入大学后，对语言方面的爱好更是一发不可收拾，大学图书馆的馆藏丰富的语言类书籍让他如鱼得水，语言学文献成为他频频光顾的对象。而在这期间，一本《鄂温克语简志》更是让他眼前一亮，同时书的内容触及了他在语言方面敏感。《鄂温克语简志》中介绍了一些鄂温克语言的发音和意义，周晨竟然发现书中有几个词汇的发音和意义与吴方言中几个词汇的发音和意义几乎相同。比如在表示”现在”的意思的时候，发音都为”艾些”。而在表示“全部”意思的时候，苏州话中的 “夯波浪当”竟然和蒙古语中的发音几乎可以说一模一样，而更甚者，在翻阅《华夏探秘》时候看到书中提到古突厥还有姑苏部落这一说。这些发现让周晨异常兴奋。为了进一步求证，周晨重新将自己一些浏览过的语言简志进行了研究，而这一略显简单的研究过程也让周晨吃惊不小：在几本语言简志中他竟然发现了有 20多个与吴方言中有接近发音和类似意义的基本词汇（基本词汇：与人类日常生活关系紧密的原始词汇，通常不超过100个，例如：人，湖，山等等）。周晨在进一步的整理中发现，与吴方言有相同之处的几本语言简志所介绍的语言竟然都统属一个语系—阿尔泰语系。而这一切发现都还只是在周晨没有系统学习过阿尔泰语系语言的基础上的发现。周晨大胆的推测：吴语属于阿尔泰语系，而不属于汉语。为了进一步论证这种猜测，周晨在大学里修完《公共关系学》学士学位后马上转而攻读日语专业。他说：日/韩语的系属问题一直是语言学界的难题，大多数人支持日语韩语归属为阿尔泰语系这一个学说，但又缺乏强有力的词源上的证据，而吴语或许正是日/韩语和阿尔泰语系的链接点。将专业转成日语后，更利于周晨研究。

2000年年初，周晨开始系统的学习阿尔泰语系的各种语言，工夫不负有心人，在周晨的努力下，吴方言中跟阿尔泰语系诸语言(包括日/韩语)相对应的基本词汇已经逐渐被发现，目前能够确认对应的基本词汇数量已经达到约五六十个。随着学习的进一步深入，周晨认为词汇的数量还会增加，他对阿尔泰语系吴方言之间的关系更加确信，因为他发现吴语和阿尔泰语系语言的关系是多方位的：包括语法、基本词汇、语音方面都有类似的关系，他举例说：苏州话中表达“热”的意义，可以叫“奥造”，而在日语中表达“热”竟然也有相似的读音。苏州观前街东有条道路叫“临顿路”，在苏州方言中，”临顿路”三个字读作”leng deng lu”(音)这种读法发音符合阿尔泰语系语言中”元音和谐”的特点，而这一特点是阿尔泰语系语言所特有的。

传统方言调查方法抹杀吴语真实面貌？

在传统的语言分类上，吴方言被分在汉藏语系的汉语这一分支内。周晨认为：之所以有人在语言学上将吴语的归为汉藏语系中的汉语一类，是因为现在的传统方言调查方法存在误区，抹杀了吴方言的真实面貌。其二，吴语在长时间受汉语官话的影响下，”纯度”已经受到影响，很多吴方言原有词汇，在官话的长期影响下，已经流失不再使用，如今“吴方言”的很多词汇都已成为官话和以前“吴方言”杂合体。其三，“吴语是汉语方言的观点”是先入之见，很多语言学家甚至不屑研究“是不是”的问题。

他认为，方言应该是在方言使用者最自然的条件下所使用的语言。而现在一些方言调查机构采用“方言调查字表”、“方言调查句表”等形式调查询问方言使用者，其实已经从方法上抹杀了方言的本来面貌。面对记者的疑惑，周晨举了个例子：假如你拿着一张已经写着“快”字“方言调查字表”询问苏州方言使用者这个字怎么读，苏州方言使用者很容易因为文字主观和汉语官话音的影响把这个字读作”kuo”（音），而在自然状态下，其实“快”在苏州方言中更为原始更为纯净的一种读法为：”骇赛”(音)。这种原始的吴语发音在苏州普通生活对话中仍然能够被常常听到。而有些吴语的基本词汇，已经不常听到，但偶尔可以见识其遗风。例如在描述“死”的意思的时候，吴语中有一种被戏谑化的读法叫“榻浪”，这个意思的读法在蒙古语、维吾尔语等阿尔泰语系语言中竟然普遍存在。不过由于汉语官话代替，“榻浪”已经逐渐不使用。评弹一直以来都被认为是纯正的”吴语”，声糯腔润，几乎没有人怀疑“评弹”的吴语的宗脉地位。但是周晨现在却认为，“评弹”中的苏白说表虽表现了更古老的吴语（尤其在语音方面），但评弹中大多数的“弹词开篇”更该叫“吴韵”评弹，它并非严格意义的“吴语”评弹。他说， 90％的评弹唱词都使用的是官话（普通话）句式和词汇，只是在读音上用了吴语的一些音韵。“评弹”唱词语法上与日常生活吴语有较大差距。听过评弹的人也许还记得，在评弹唱词中唱第三人称“他”都是唱“ta”（音），音韵虽然很糯，显得很苏州味，但是仔细一分析不难发现，其实生活中自然的苏州话对话说“他” 时是绝对不会读出”ta”（音）的，生活中多数为“恩纳”（音）。而“评弹”中这个”ta” （音），明显是受到汉语官话 (普通话)的影响。
同苏州话一样，属吴语一脉的杭州话、上海话等也面临着和苏州话一样的汉语官话冲击影响。南宋时期，杭州成为当时都城，大量的北方话逐渐侵入到杭州话中，所以如今的杭州话中往往带有大量的北方“儿”化音，例如杭州话称小孩子为“小丫儿”，甜豆腐浆叫“甜浆儿”等等。但是语言词汇易变，语法难改，杭州话中“吴语”语法句式却几乎未变。 杭州话语法句式虽几乎未变，但试想拿着已经定型的句子去让方言使用者读出，能看出方言真正的表达方式么？在周晨看来， “方言调查句表”更加掩盖了吴语真正面貌。他试举了一个上海话对话的例子：

“你在哪里啊？”（自然表达的上海话：侬拉拉哈里答？）

“我在火车上。”（自然表达的上海话：吾么拉拉火车高头哇。）

一旦使用“方言调查表”的形式调查，往往句子的读法就变味成了“吾拉拉火车浪”。将重要的吴语语法成分“么”、“高头”、“哇”统统给弄丢了。可见“方言调查表”成了吴语原始面貌的杀手。

“吴语”还活着！

如今，说到方言，必然会说到语言保护的问题。著名学者、北京大学教授王岳川说，全世界每天都有几种语言在消失，每年都有几种文化死去，如果不加以保护，岂不是很可悲的事情？保护语言，同时也就保护了个体文化和村落文化，保护了文化的多样性。

苏州话属于吴语的一种，承载了很多历史文化的遗存，因此从历史文化保护的角度来看，需要保护苏州话。事实上，近年来也有很多有识之士不断的在呼吁 “保护吴方言、保护吴文化”。一直以来，苏州市政府认识到保护吴语的重要性，采取了一系列的措施，在电视上开办《天天山海经》、《苏阿姨谈家常》等 “吴方言”栏目；在中小学中开设有关“吴方言”课程；派发“乡土教材”等等，他们为尽量保持好“吴方言”乃至“吴文化”的遗存作着不懈的努力。

在“保护吴方言“的过程中，免不了有激烈的辩论。有人说：推广普通话是国家语委的既定“国策”，推普符合时代要求，保护吴方言则背道而驰，是人为地阻挠普通话的推广。但有的学者认为，保护吴语和推广普通话不矛盾，它们不是一种非此即彼的关系，会说普通话也可以会说吴语。另外一种观点则认为，在信息交流频繁的今天，人能记住的东西是有限的。当使用普通话的频率逐渐增加的时候，吴语使用频率必然逐渐降低。日久天长，有朝一日，你是否还能熟练的说起久未谋面的吴语呢？

现在很多人说吴语已经“不古”，说现在苏州话很多音都“不对了”，更有甚者说吴侬软语快要“死了”。日本中世纪有位叫吉田兼好的作家，当时也常常抱怨那个时代的日语“不古”，但是现在的日本人却把当时的日语奉为了“经典文语”。语言变化上，一直有一个“十年语音、百年词汇、千年语法、几千年基本词汇”的说法。可见，语言的变化常有。吴语的这种“语音”变化是必然的趋势，这也许正是吴语有活力的一种表现吧。周晨说，吴语在变化，恰恰代表了“吴语”还活着。

怎样才能保护好“吴侬软语”、怎样处理好“保护吴语”和“推广普通话”之间的关系、怎样看待吴语的“不古”，也许我们还有很长的路要走。

吴方言研究搭乘“网络快车”

虽说周晨推论有了阶段性的成果，吴语词汇和阿尔泰语系的词汇对应已经从归纳整理阶段到了词例演绎阶段，但是在具体论证的过程中依然免不了受客观条件的制约。吴语在汉语官话的影响下，纯净程度大不如以前，而周晨通过“大浪淘沙”的方式在平常生活积累吴语的原始纯净词汇，进展缓慢。面对这样一个困境，周晨想到了尝试网络。目前周晨担任着名城苏州网的吴论坛 (www.woobbs.com)上一个有关吴方言讨论版的版主，在讨论版内，已经形成了一种良好的氛围，只要是对吴方言感兴趣的网友都会自发的去尝试寻找汉语官话冲击下那些残存的吴语词汇发到吴方言版面上讨论研究。周晨目前正在通过网络收集整理这些原始的文献资料，作为下一步研究的素材。周晨说：目前搜集到的所有论据已经有力的证明了自己提出的“吴语源于阿尔泰语系不源于汉语”这一论点，因为吴语的基本词汇和语法这些标志一种语言本质的要素依然没有变化。但要完整的证明并建立一个理论，还需要很多历史、人文方面去佐证，所以他将继续进行论据的搜索，并在适当的时候将相关论文发表出来。

属于乌拉尔语系的匈牙利、爱沙尼亚和芬兰语也有“元音和谐”的特点。

阿是来了哈七答八啊

有眼意思。
个么苏州闲话是哪能会得高阿尔泰语系搭上嘎厄呢。距离朗来看，高土耳其语，维吾尔语佬萨相比是远开八只脚厄么。

夯波浪当,偶们在北京也听人说的哦.就是杂七杂八加在一起的意思.

是额呀，大概的额就是拧嘎港为啥上海拧学日语比较快，有一眼道理额

这新闻好像几年前就看过。不需要是方言专家，也能看出能在苏州方言中找出五六十个字词和蒙古语等发音相对、以及几个“元音和谐”的例子，距离声称“吴语属于阿尔泰语系”还相当遥远，再由此推出“吴语不属于汉语”这样庞大的结论更是荒谬。至于“苏州话象外语根本听不懂”恐怕只是记者用来加强趣味的想像，是不能用来作为证据的。周晨的研究本身应该是有价值的，吴语随时代的变迁，以及受官方/国语/普通话的影响，还是个比较有意思的话题，但炒成“吴语不属于汉语”是不应该的。

It always takes some stretch to make a headline, isn't it?

Seriously though, the boundary between languages is not clear-cut. Even if it had been proven that 吴语 has some historical link to 阿尔泰语系, it'd still be to quick to jump to the conclusion “吴语不属于汉藏语系”. It might well serve as an evidence that the two language systems are linked. I certainly wouldn't be surprised.

虽然不会听不会说“吴语”“鄂温克语”或蒙古语，但我倒是希望吴语属于阿尔泰语系。这样让人觉得华夏语言没有那么单一，更加浪漫。

既然差别如此大的梵语、波兰语、波斯语和英语等能同属印欧语系，分别独立发展6000年的匈牙利语和芬兰语同属乌拉尔语系，为什么吴语就不能和日韩鄂伦春语一样属于阿尔泰语系呢？

另外，有语言学家把乌拉尔语系和阿尔泰语系划分为一组语群即乌拉尔-阿尔泰语系。而且曾经有人比较过，跟芬兰北部Lapland的游牧部落所讲语言Lappish最接近的语言竟然是韩语。这样，吴语属于阿尔泰语系或乌拉尔-阿尔泰语系也不是完全没有可能的。

there is a 吴语 wikipedia http://wuu.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B0%81%E9%9D%A2

and 粤语 http://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A0%AD%E7%89%88 歡迎嚟到維基百科

and 文言 http://zh-classical.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8D%B7%E9%A6%96

what separate dialects from an independent language? I think it is time for the mandarin based education authoritiy to give us an answer. I was "traumatised" by my experience at home this Xmas. My 11 years old nephew didn't know how to read an article in local language, though I was able to get some reassurance from my 14 years old neciece when she read it out, with some corrections from me on pronounciations.

It seems the last bastion of local language, Guangdong, has finally lost this war, the freedom of thinking in your own language.

How many people, here, in this forum, actually do abstract thinkin in their native tongue instead of Madarin?

In my home county, anyone above 28, is able to coverse abstract ideas using local language. But since the forced usae of mandarin as the only language in the school, everything is lost.

Multi-ligual is a false claim, you need to have a native tongue first, before you can truly acuqire another language.

That's my point of view, anyway.

I am native speaker of Mandarin, Cantonese. I find it is hard to think - visualise in brain in Cantonese, even English reasoning seemed easier.
I figure it is down to the expression power of each language. English is greate for speech - speaker can even talking while thinking - because the gammar being very flexible.
And in comparison, Mandarin is easier to communicate abstract idea, cracking joke than Cantonese - I am not seeing any Cantonese speaker good at communication.

Just my 2 ct.

纯属扯淡文章。
典型使用阿尔泰语系的民族都在北方，要说受阿尔泰语系影响最大的汉语分支，只可能是清代受满人影响形成的北方官话。北方官话中一些字的读音与古汉语是不一样的。很多古汉语的发音反而是在南方的粤语和吴语中保留下来了。有些古诗用普通话读是不押韵的，但用南方话读却是押韵的。当然，公正一点说，北方话和南方话分别保留了古汉语中不同的部分，都是汉语的分支。要说吴语是阿尔泰语系，那些北方游牧民族人是怎么影响江南人说话的？

至于吴语发音有些与阿尔泰语系的相同，那也好解释——历史上有几个阿尔泰语系的民族没受过汉族文明的影响？他们要么直接用汉字，要么在汉字的基础上发明自己的文字，他们的语言怎么可能不受古汉语的影响？你要是听听韩语，你还会觉得有些词汇念起来象粤语呢。既然大家都受古汉语的影响，那有几个词汇的发音相近是再自然不过的事情了。就算是北方话，北京话里的“胡同”也是从蒙古话变过来的。




记得以前看过一篇关于各地方言发展过程的文章，讲到过这样一种理论：之所以北方官话从古汉语的6个声调变成了4个声调(吴语至少有5个，粤语好像有9个)，是受了游牧民族的影响——因为放牧在非常广阔的地带进行，说话必须大声，所以游牧民族的语言里是没有那些不容易发出响声的声调的，比如入声。这样，在那些受游牧民族统治的朝代里，这些声调就逐渐从北方官话里消失了；而吴语中仍旧保留了入声。

很难想象，不张开上下牙齿就几乎可以说出所有语音的吴侬软语，会跟必须大声喊叫的游牧民族的阿尔泰系语言有血缘关系。

If you compare the way and proficiency people speak Cantonese in Guangzhou with that of Hong Kong, it's not hard to get that impression. The war between Cantonese and Mandarin, or I prefer to call it Putong Hua was lost years ago, before the current generation of native Cantonese started to learn their mother tongue. This is a sad fact.

The only place where most vivid Cantonese expressions are preserved is probably Hong Kong (and Macau, but as it's so small and similar to Hong Kong, we could probably safely ignore it for our discussion). But we all know that's a result of British rule. The preservation of decent Cantonese, unfortunately, came at a cost of Hong Kong's Chinese language competence. And most of all, Hong Kong people speaks rubbish Putong Hua, which is a big disadvantage in competition in the Greater China region.

Broadly speaking, the state of Cantonese now is an odd ball among the hundreds of demising Chinese dialects, because of the unique political situation of Hong Kong. (Minnan Hua and Hakka (Ke Jia Hua) suffered almost the same loss in Taiwan as they were in the mainland, primarily because KMT's policies haven't been much different than the CCP until the 90's.) But it nonetheless serves as grim reminder how other dialects have been dying out during the last century, taking part of the Chinese tradition with them. I'm not trying to blame any one here. Government policies do played a negative role here, but generally this is a global trend. As I pointed out in my previous post, even official languages in other countries like French and German are fighting for speakers, potentially their own existence.

In the recent years, however, Cantonese, Minnan Hua and Hakka do have a comeback somewhat. It's partly due to people's increasing awareness of their root, partly because popular culture (in the case of Cantonese), partly as a result of some political struggle (in Minnan Hua and Hakka's case). But to me these phenomena are just temperary. Major dialect(s) will grow stronger and minor ones will keep getting weaker and weaker until they die out. The process is accelerating, a unified common Chinese dialect could emerge as quick as within the 21st century. The next step will happen in the language level, with English, Chinese, Spanish and possibly Portugese as the major players.



My native tongue is sadly Putong Hua as I'm also a victim of the above trend. However, I don't think that a problem caused alone by the education system. Even if other dialects had been given a fair chance in our schools, they might not be able to make it after all. Hong Kong government's recent failure in 母语教学 policy, for example, is another example idealistic thinking stands no chance dealing pragmatic problems.

The reason is simple. Language is a living thing. It evolves. Nowadays, languages tend to convey more complex ideas than before and people communicate in a wider range and more depth. It's inevitable that less common and less used languages fail to grab a piece of mindshare when people do complex, abstract thinking - communication is not only a natural extension of thinking, it shapes the way people thinking! Once again, it's Darwinism in action.

In the individual level, multi-lingual is still possible, but in a large scale, modern society makes it harder and harder to maintain the necessary boundary and balance among languages.

That, I suspect, it is because you are educated by using mandarin, for example, when you pick up a newspaper, instintively, will you read it in cantonese or in Mardarin?

My monther tongue is a more obsure language than cantonese, but remeber, basically, all languages in China get access to the pool of Chinese literature( the most abstract form of languages), don't actually need mandarin as a medium. My point of view is using mandarin instead of the native tongue to FORMULATE abstract ideas will slow the speed of thinking, and probably, will negatively affect intellectual development.

Communicating abstract ideas orally is another matter, which I think, depends on sensory ability on the mastery of sounds and visual vision.

English is a language totally different from Chinese, so , as long as you already consolidated your native tongue before learning abstract ideas in English, the mastery of English will double the size of the "Channel" you use in formulate abstract ideas.

My Point of view only.

Disillusion

well...

好在更有益的，是有人近期作了一个试验，把一段上海话放到blog上，让人猜测其为何。猜测者有人以为是匈牙利语、亚美尼亚语、希伯来语、斯拉夫语、日韩语。。。当然其中也谈到了吴语属于阿尔泰语系的观点：

http://www.omniglot.com/blog/2006/11/25/na.../#comment-17355

Name the language
Posted the 25th of November, 2006 by Simon in Language,

Quiz questions


Can you work out what language this short conversation is in, and what it means?

This language is spoken mainly in one large city and has no official status.



13 Responses to “Name the language”
DMH Says:

The 25th of November, 2006 at 4:57 pm

It’s Shanghainese! (Or 上海话…) My first thought upon reading the clue was Shanghainese and when I listened to the clip I had my suspicions confirmed. I really like Shanghainese (and Shanghai!!!) and plan to learn it some day.

Simon Says:

The 25th of November, 2006 at 6:02 pm

You’re right, it is Shanghainese, and comes from Zaunheireiwo Zemen (上海话入门 / An Introduction to Shanghainese)

It sounds unlike any of the other varieties of Chinese I know.

DMH Says:

The 25th of November, 2006 at 6:13 pm

To me it kinda sounds like Japanese. I think it doesn’t really sound like other Chinese 话s b/c Shanghainese only has high and low tones and not 4 to 9 depending on the 话.

d.m.falk Says:

The 25th of November, 2006 at 11:01 pm

Sounds like a mix of Japanese, Korean, Mongolian, and similar languages- Most notably like Japanese, but isn’t any of the above. Would be fascinating to hear a radio station in this unusual language.

d.m.f.

jdotjdot89 Says:

The 26th of November, 2006 at 2:16 am

Try doing some language identification tests with some other language families. I have zero experience with Asian languages, but I do with others, and I’d love to try your challenges.

Matt Says:

The 26th of November, 2006 at 4:50 am

haha.. i was thinking it was Hungarian… I would have never guessed it to be Shanghainese!

Trevor Says:

The 26th of November, 2006 at 5:27 am

This is the first one that really stumped me. I thought it sounded Slavic and was dumbfounded trying to think of a slavic language without official status spoken mainly in one city.
AND I even speak Mandarin, so it’s a testament to the differences between Chinese dialects/languages that I was waaay out of the ballpark on this one.

Simon Says:

The 26th of November, 2006 at 11:02 am

d.m.falk - as far as I know there aren’t any radio stations that broadcast in Shanghainese.

jdotjdot89 - which language families are you familiar with?

d.m.falk Says:

The 26th of November, 2006 at 11:28 am

Many turkic-altaic languages sound slavic, at least to those not familiar with either. Shanghainese, or more properly Wu, may or may not be an altaic language. It has the added similarity to Korean (which is) and Japanese (which officially, no-one’s sure what family of languages it belongs to, if any). It certainly has the Japanese syllabic regularity. It is certainly unique being in a land otherwise surrounded by primarily sino-tibetan languages and dialects!

d.m.f.

Joseph Q Says:

The 26th of November, 2006 at 7:52 pm

The intonation makes it sound like a muddled korean, and like Trevor I speak a little mandarin, and was amazed at the difference

ISPKN Says:

The 27th of November, 2006 at 7:36 pm

At first I thought it sounded like a mix between Mandarin and Hebrew. I could tell it wasn’t either of course. Just some of the harsh kh sounds remind me of Hebrew.

Dave W Says:

The 30th of November, 2006 at 2:19 am

How weird! It almost sounded like an oscure dialect of Armenian. Really! I live in a city with 50,000+ Armenians and I almost thought I recognized a word here and there. Oh well!

Linda Says:

The 17th of December, 2006 at 7:18 pm

It is definitely Shanghainese, Chinese. I am Shanghainese and it is my first language. The guy was asking about the library.

Chinese has so many different dialects, so you can’t say “this doesn’t sound Chinese,” because it’s like…well…what Chinese? Mandarin? Cantonese? What? Ya know?

I guess that's probably because you grew up in a more Mandarin rich environment than Cantonese. I'm a native Putong Hua speaker. I know Cantonese, but can't speak as fluent as a native speaker does. However, I do find that Cantonese has more vivid expressions which one can't find equivalent in Putong Hua. I also find that I'm not along on this. I've actually met many people who speak other dialects giving me similar examples in their respective dialects too.

Note I'm making a difference between Putong Hua and Mandarin here. Because Mandarin is more like a umbrella term, it actually can refer to a number of things with slightly different meanings, such as Beijing Hua, and Beifang Hua. The former is by itself a distinct dialect, whereas the latter is another umbrella term that covers a family of dialects in Northern China. Beijing Hua is pretty feature rich. Other members of the Beifang Hua family are likely to be so too, one easy example is probably Dongbei Hua. Putong Hua, on the other hand, is a well defined common dialect, or the official dialect. Literally, it's meant to be a common divisor of what most Chinese people can speak. A lot of words in Beijing Hua can not be found in most Putong Hua speakers' active vocabulary, although they generally understand it.

I'm not linguist and my Cantonese may not be as good as yours. Here's only my 2 pence worth of thought. As for a good communicator in Cantonese, I think you may find one by simply listen to a radio show in Hong Kong. Their Chinese may be rubbish, but not Cantonese.



Or talking without thinking... i.e. talking rubbish smoothly. Haven't we all seen one here in the UK?
The advantage of English is it's relative simple grammar and huge vocabulary - so many synonyms and antonyms. It is quite trivial to generate loads of rubbish without even trying to make any sense.



I think the "formulate" part largely depends on one's disciplinary training. For instance, if a Chinese speaker and a English speaker are both asked to derive some maths formula, they will ultimately do it in the language of mathematics, despite one pronounce the symbols the Chinese way while others read it in English.

Of course, if you ask them to interperate the formula they derived, they would probably try communicating in their respective languages. What on earth is the form of thinking? We see the boundary blurred again.

Generally, I believe every language can do most of things equally well, given adequate chance to DEVELOP. But the last part is usually not achievable to most languages in the real world. Chances are, most of them develop better in some area than the others. Even a language like English get's diversified as being developed relatively independently in different areas. Such characteristics are exactly what's being found on living organisms.

我把臭脚丫给了你，把十三点给了她。

Until I saw the quoted comment by Simon, I was thinking to myself - this is creepy.

Every word is pronounced correct and the tone is of native Shanghainese, but it's just no way to be a natural conversation.

分裂偶亲耐滴祖国
上鞋带赐死!
钦此!

中国本来就是个多民族的国家
如果不是历史上伟大的帝王们南征北讨
偶们真的极有可能不是一只东方雄鸡...就这样还有一只蛋不肯回家捏,汗一下
维护统一安定的前提下,从文化的角度保护好地方语言与习俗就好了嘛

Have you been watching too much Qing drama lately, lass?

各么业那航啦，

so what?