中新社纽约九月二十三日电 题：温家宝纽约谈“奶粉事件”：我十分痛心
中新社记者 魏晞 张朔
今天抵达纽约的中国总理温家宝说，一个企业家身上应该流着道德的血液。只有把看得见的企业技术、产品和管理，以及背后引导他们并受他们影响的理念、道德和责任，两者加在一起才能构成经济和企业的DNA。
出席联合国有关会议的温家宝，心里仍放不下国内正在发生的婴幼儿“毒奶粉”事件。他在出席美国友好团体举行的欢迎宴会时，表情肃然、语气沉重地说：最近我们发生了一起婴幼儿奶粉的公共卫生事件，给消费者特别是婴幼儿的身体健康带来了极大危害，也造成了严重的社会影响，作为政府负责人，我感到十分痛心。他同时强调：“我以为，更重要是从这场事件中吸收教训”。
温家宝说，作为一个负责任的政府，我们立即采取了果断措施，包括公开信息、坚决地将有害的奶粉和奶制品下架、封存并且销毁，严肃查处事件的肇事者和责任人。
他说，要确保产品质量特别是食品安全，因为这关系每个人的健康和生命，绝不能以牺牲人的健康和生命换取企业的利益和经济发展；同时，加强制度建设，从生产的每一个环节都要重视监督和检查，切实保证消费者的利益。
面对在座五百多名参加欢迎宴会的美国友好团体成员，温家宝郑重保证：中国将从根本上改善中国产品质量和食品安全的状况。中国出产的产品特别是食品，不仅要符合国际的标准，而且要符合进口国要求，“我们将努力实现这一点”。
温家宝说，我担任六年总理的生涯，可说是多灾多难。从SARS的爆发，到冰雪灾害和特大地震，从煤矿事故到食品安全事件的发生，这些都给予我们深刻的启示，也使我们在困难中学会了新的东西。“正像我经常所说的，一个民族在灾难中失去的，总会由进步来补偿”。
在回答另一提问时，温家宝引用《沉思录》里的一句话：“请看看那些所谓的伟大的人物，他们现在都到哪里去？都烟消云散了。有的成为故事，有的甚至连半个故事都算不上”。
他说，我希望留给后人两点精神遗产：第一，当遇到灾难时不要退缩，要勇于面对，并且带领人民去克服，这需要坚定、勇气和信心；第二，一个政府，除了对人民的负责、服务、献身和廉洁以外，不应该有任何特权。一切权力属于人民，一切权力都要为了人民。
“我希望在我离开人世之后，人们能记住这位总理，确实是按照这两点来做的。”现场响起了长长的掌声。(完)
【编辑:闻育旻】
http://chinanews.com.cn/gn/news/2008/09-24/1391738.shtml
Phil按：即使温家宝是真心说的最后两句话，那他也绝对会失望的。不要跟我说温家宝不知道国务院中央的特供中心，不要跟我说温家宝从没有享受过在生活上甚至各个方面的特权。一个能睁着眼睛，表情严肃真诚地告诉记者政府在奥运前没有逮捕异见人士，政府“不应该有任何特权”，但是政府大牢里关着异见人士，他自己和下属们吃着特供食品，享受着各类特权的总理，只能是一个会演戏的总理......他更应该去好莱坞发展，而不是国务院！
完整版本: 温家宝纽约谈“奶粉事件”：我十分痛心
Keeping the faith
James Reynolds 23 Sep 08, 03:25 PM GMT
Milk powder tainted with an industrial chemical - just a year after lead paint was found in children's toys, and poison was discovered in pet food and toothpaste. So how do people feel about a government that has again failed in its promise to keep products safe?
"I think the government is doing a good job so far," says Dong Zhen Sheng who took his two year-old daughter to hospital be checked for kidney stones, "After news of the scandal was broken by the media, the government reacted quite quickly. And they've allowed us to have free hospital checks for our children."
For all the parents' anger then, you still come across a bedrock faith in this country's top leaders - and in their ability to make things right. As I've written here before, this faith dates back to the time of the emperors. Traditionally, when things go wrong in China, you blame corrupt lower-level officials, and you look to a benevolent leader in the capital to come to the rescue.
So, in recent days, Chinese state TV has followed this ancient model closely. It's reported openly on the failure of lower-level officials - the resignation of the chief quality regulator and the sacking of a number of provincial officials. And it's shown the benevolent leader coming in to make things right - in this case, the Premier Wen Jiabao visiting hospitals and promising to reform the dairy industry.
Mr Wen represents a system that's built on trust not scepticism - on the belief that you should put your faith in wise leaders to keep you safe. In this system - inherited from imperial times - there's no room for any meaningful checks and balances.
The Party doesn't allow the establishment of an independent legal system, a free press, or strong NGOs - the kind of tools that other countries use to keep their officials honest and their food safe. If you dare to challenge the Party in China, your life can get pretty difficult.
A few days ago, in south Beijing, several hundred neighbours decided to break the law. They went to protest against the presence of a rubbish dump near their homes. The police marched next to them. Two officers with white gloves raised banners printed with the words "Do Not Violate Public Order."
"They feel furious - more than angry," one protestor told me (he declined to give me his name).
"Do you hope the government will listen and do something?" I asked.
"I don't think so - unless somebody dies. As you can see with the milk problem, that's the philosophy and without any necessary monitoring from any third party I don't think the government will do anything to curb the feeling that people generate."
After a couple of hours the protestors went home. A little later, a number of them were detained by the police. This is what happens in China when you try to challenge the Party's authority - when you try to suggest that there should be more independent regulation and oversight. But this week, the irony of how China is run may be pretty clear. You're still meant to trust the Party even if you can no longer trust the food it allows you to buy in the shops.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/jamesreynolds/
James Reynolds 23 Sep 08, 03:25 PM GMT
Milk powder tainted with an industrial chemical - just a year after lead paint was found in children's toys, and poison was discovered in pet food and toothpaste. So how do people feel about a government that has again failed in its promise to keep products safe?
"I think the government is doing a good job so far," says Dong Zhen Sheng who took his two year-old daughter to hospital be checked for kidney stones, "After news of the scandal was broken by the media, the government reacted quite quickly. And they've allowed us to have free hospital checks for our children."
For all the parents' anger then, you still come across a bedrock faith in this country's top leaders - and in their ability to make things right. As I've written here before, this faith dates back to the time of the emperors. Traditionally, when things go wrong in China, you blame corrupt lower-level officials, and you look to a benevolent leader in the capital to come to the rescue.
So, in recent days, Chinese state TV has followed this ancient model closely. It's reported openly on the failure of lower-level officials - the resignation of the chief quality regulator and the sacking of a number of provincial officials. And it's shown the benevolent leader coming in to make things right - in this case, the Premier Wen Jiabao visiting hospitals and promising to reform the dairy industry.
Mr Wen represents a system that's built on trust not scepticism - on the belief that you should put your faith in wise leaders to keep you safe. In this system - inherited from imperial times - there's no room for any meaningful checks and balances.
The Party doesn't allow the establishment of an independent legal system, a free press, or strong NGOs - the kind of tools that other countries use to keep their officials honest and their food safe. If you dare to challenge the Party in China, your life can get pretty difficult.
A few days ago, in south Beijing, several hundred neighbours decided to break the law. They went to protest against the presence of a rubbish dump near their homes. The police marched next to them. Two officers with white gloves raised banners printed with the words "Do Not Violate Public Order."
"They feel furious - more than angry," one protestor told me (he declined to give me his name).
"Do you hope the government will listen and do something?" I asked.
"I don't think so - unless somebody dies. As you can see with the milk problem, that's the philosophy and without any necessary monitoring from any third party I don't think the government will do anything to curb the feeling that people generate."
After a couple of hours the protestors went home. A little later, a number of them were detained by the police. This is what happens in China when you try to challenge the Party's authority - when you try to suggest that there should be more independent regulation and oversight. But this week, the irony of how China is run may be pretty clear. You're still meant to trust the Party even if you can no longer trust the food it allows you to buy in the shops.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/jamesreynolds/
---
第一，当遇到灾难时不要退缩，要勇于面对，并且带领人民去克服，这需要坚定、勇气和信心；第二，一个政府，除了对人民的负责、服务、献身和廉洁以外，不应该有任何特权。一切权力属于人民，一切权力都要为了人民。
Personally speaking i though what PM said is sincere and it is basically right.
Even for an ordinary individual, when she or he faces with catastrophy or other disasters, she or he should have the courage and confidence to go through it and when things not happen towards good direction you need insist and carry on what you are doing,like what Gordon Brown said it was not a responsible act to go away when People in Britian are facing serious problems.
What PM said 不应该有任何特权,not saying he didn't actually have any priviledges.The difference is what should be and what is actually existed. Sometimes you need think about the surroundings and environment around PM. Not everybody surround PM has the same idea of 不应该有任何特权. Since China was and still is a ......
一切权力属于人民，一切权力都要为了人民。This is very good thought which prove PM has the idea of what a service government should be.
So basically i think what PM said is sincere. Please don't blame PM too much since it is not a easy job at all. I would want to change my job for his .
Personally speaking i though what PM said is sincere and it is basically right.
Even for an ordinary individual, when she or he faces with catastrophy or other disasters, she or he should have the courage and confidence to go through it and when things not happen towards good direction you need insist and carry on what you are doing,like what Gordon Brown said it was not a responsible act to go away when People in Britian are facing serious problems.
What PM said 不应该有任何特权,not saying he didn't actually have any priviledges.The difference is what should be and what is actually existed. Sometimes you need think about the surroundings and environment around PM. Not everybody surround PM has the same idea of 不应该有任何特权. Since China was and still is a ......
一切权力属于人民，一切权力都要为了人民。This is very good thought which prove PM has the idea of what a service government should be.
So basically i think what PM said is sincere. Please don't blame PM too much since it is not a easy job at all. I would want to change my job for his .
Dear Franklee, FRANKLY speaking, I don't know quite well about our PM's surroundings and people around me. Or you are saying that our PM might be the only one has the sincerity in the government? Well, that explains why he always fails to do what a PM shall do. But...how can he remain and be re-elected(or re-selected?) as the PM if he's not able to do what a PM shall do?
Or you may say it's the system that holding him back. He's not able to fight the system around him. Ok, that might be true. I know some government officials who joined the government with a great vision to serve the people the country but finally turned out the same as their bosses. But if he is really so sincere, with his fame and reputation, why doesn't he step out and really DO something to challenge, or even change the system?
Yes, PM is not a easy job. But what else is? Cleaning the street? Taking care of the AIDS patients? Providing legal service to the people whose rights were violated by the government? In fact, those jobs are much more difficult than the PM's completely! But we can see those people are so helpless and they were even being poisoned by some evil merchants, just because the PM NEVER does his job. Of course you can think of exchanging job with his. A lot of young people do. That's why every year we have huge crowd applying for the government positions--almost everyone in China knows once you are in the government, you will have less chance to get the luck with those poisoned milk powders, or something else alike.
Yes, his words can really fool some people that the PM does have a good heart for the people. But I bet 田文华 can speak much better than he does. Just as they sing in Evita: He did nothing for years. But he DID speak a lot, and a lot, all in vain. Can you tell us what his achievements are in his terms?
Anyway, whatever you imagine him, I had done that too. But what he said to the press about 胡佳 and 杨春林's arrest in the earlier time this year, eventually broke the little remained good impression of him in my heart. He lied with no sign of regret or feeling shame in front of the cameras. And that's when I came to learn that he's really good at ACTING than actions.
Or you may say it's the system that holding him back. He's not able to fight the system around him. Ok, that might be true. I know some government officials who joined the government with a great vision to serve the people the country but finally turned out the same as their bosses. But if he is really so sincere, with his fame and reputation, why doesn't he step out and really DO something to challenge, or even change the system?
Yes, PM is not a easy job. But what else is? Cleaning the street? Taking care of the AIDS patients? Providing legal service to the people whose rights were violated by the government? In fact, those jobs are much more difficult than the PM's completely! But we can see those people are so helpless and they were even being poisoned by some evil merchants, just because the PM NEVER does his job. Of course you can think of exchanging job with his. A lot of young people do. That's why every year we have huge crowd applying for the government positions--almost everyone in China knows once you are in the government, you will have less chance to get the luck with those poisoned milk powders, or something else alike.
Yes, his words can really fool some people that the PM does have a good heart for the people. But I bet 田文华 can speak much better than he does. Just as they sing in Evita: He did nothing for years. But he DID speak a lot, and a lot, all in vain. Can you tell us what his achievements are in his terms?
Anyway, whatever you imagine him, I had done that too. But what he said to the press about 胡佳 and 杨春林's arrest in the earlier time this year, eventually broke the little remained good impression of him in my heart. He lied with no sign of regret or feeling shame in front of the cameras. And that's when I came to learn that he's really good at ACTING than actions.
窃钩者诛，窃国者为诸侯，诸侯之门而仁义存焉。 --庄子《胠篋》
[解释]
偷了吴钩（一种佩刀）的被杀头，窃国大盗反而成了诸侯，诸侯的门下仁义高悬。
最高明的大盗不偷具体的东西，他偷国家，偷仁义礼法，偷圣人贤士，偷天下美女……超越小偷蟊贼的低层次，进入了看起来不是盗贼的高境界。两极相通，大盗反而像圣人了。
大恶似大善，大奸似大忠，大伪似大真，大丑似大美。
[解释]
偷了吴钩（一种佩刀）的被杀头，窃国大盗反而成了诸侯，诸侯的门下仁义高悬。
最高明的大盗不偷具体的东西，他偷国家，偷仁义礼法，偷圣人贤士，偷天下美女……超越小偷蟊贼的低层次，进入了看起来不是盗贼的高境界。两极相通，大盗反而像圣人了。
大恶似大善，大奸似大忠，大伪似大真，大丑似大美。
引用(Phil @ 24 Sep 2008, 11:23) 
Phil按：即使温家宝是真心说的最后两句话，那他也绝对会失望的。不要跟我说温家宝不知道国务院中央的特供中心，不要跟我说温家宝从没有享受过在生活上甚至各个方面的特权。一个能睁着眼睛，表情严肃真诚地告诉记者政府在奥运前没有逮捕异见人士，政府“不应该有任何特权”，但是政府大牢里关着异见人士，他自己和下属们吃着特供食品，享受着各类特权的总理，只能是一个会演戏的总理......他更应该去好莱坞发展，而不是国务院！
温家宝当然不会是完美的了，要不怎么能成为共产党政客啊。
我是相信温家宝应该会被百姓记住的，因为在他任内，取消了农业税，农村基层政府提留没了，农村小孩上学不用交学费了。
比朱大嘴，李三峡，赵六四任内减轻农民负担天天喊，年年抓，越抓越重，不是一个数量级的。
当然了，知识分子同志们可能更关心什么异见人士，几个人的特权。
He must have had his feelings for the children PERSONALLY, while
he must not have had his feelings as a PARTY REPRESENTATIVE.
he must not have had his feelings as a PARTY REPRESENTATIVE.
Dear friend,
I really respect you right your view and sometimes i even hold the same ideas as yours, but towards PM i would like speak out a few words for him.
1)Dear Franklee, FRANKLY speaking, I don't know quite well about our PM's surroundings and people around me. Or you are saying that our PM might be the only one has the sincerity in the government? Well, that explains why he always fails to do what a PM shall do. But...how can he remain and be re-elected(or re-selected?) as the PM if he's not able to do what a PM shall do?Or you may say it's the system that holding him back. He's not able to fight the system around him. Ok, that might be true. I know some government officials who joined the government with a great vision to serve the people the country but finally turned out the same as their bosses. But if he is really so sincere, with his fame and reputation, why doesn't he step out and really DO something to challenge, or even change the system?
My answer: i don't know either much about the surroundings and people around him, what i have is some idea about the practice and procedure and personal experience going on in China. Those practice could not possibly be changed in a day. In case somebody wants fast tracks the results would normally prove to be futile. Like DR HU said the society and the country need the everyone's little effort day by day.Little effort day by day proved to be a useful way of self improvement according to my personal experience. Sometimes if you want to solve all the problem at one time you are most likely to suffer defeat and setbacks.I really believe what Clinton and Hilary's belief to improve the system gradually if you are not satified with it,sometimes the system you don't like may be the more practical way for development, sometimes you can not be sure you are absolutely right.
2)Yes, PM is not a easy job. But what else is? Cleaning the street? Taking care of the AIDS patients? Providing legal service to the people whose rights were violated by the government? In fact, those jobs are much more difficult than the PM's completely! But we can see those people are so helpless and they were even being poisoned by some evil merchants, just because the PM NEVER does his job. Of course you can think of exchanging job with his. A lot of young people do. That's why every year we have huge crowd applying for the government positions--almost everyone in China knows once you are in the government, you will have less chance to get the luck with those poisoned milk powders, or something else alike.
I don't think PM never did his job. since my own typing errors you mistaked my intention that i actually prefer not to exchange job with his although anyway i have no chance at all. Why so many people are crazy about to get a Civil Servant Job, because China is still......, which i think is the situation and stage of development that China are now in.
3) Yes, his words can really fool some people that the PM does have a good heart for the people. But I bet 田文华 can speak much better than he does. Just as they sing in Evita: He did nothing for years. But he DID speak a lot, and a lot, all in vain. Can you tell us what his achievements are in his terms? Anyway, whatever you imagine him, I had done that too. But what he said to the press about 胡佳 and 杨春林's arrest in the earlier time this year, eventually broke the little remained good impression of him in my heart. He lied with no sign of regret or feeling shame in front of the cameras. And that's when I came to learn that he's really good at ACTING than actions.
PM HU is a good PM,that my belief and it may be wrong and it may right, at least some ordinary Chinese hold the same opinion.
To talk with you is really a good experience. Have a good day.
I really respect you right your view and sometimes i even hold the same ideas as yours, but towards PM i would like speak out a few words for him.
1)Dear Franklee, FRANKLY speaking, I don't know quite well about our PM's surroundings and people around me. Or you are saying that our PM might be the only one has the sincerity in the government? Well, that explains why he always fails to do what a PM shall do. But...how can he remain and be re-elected(or re-selected?) as the PM if he's not able to do what a PM shall do?Or you may say it's the system that holding him back. He's not able to fight the system around him. Ok, that might be true. I know some government officials who joined the government with a great vision to serve the people the country but finally turned out the same as their bosses. But if he is really so sincere, with his fame and reputation, why doesn't he step out and really DO something to challenge, or even change the system?
My answer: i don't know either much about the surroundings and people around him, what i have is some idea about the practice and procedure and personal experience going on in China. Those practice could not possibly be changed in a day. In case somebody wants fast tracks the results would normally prove to be futile. Like DR HU said the society and the country need the everyone's little effort day by day.Little effort day by day proved to be a useful way of self improvement according to my personal experience. Sometimes if you want to solve all the problem at one time you are most likely to suffer defeat and setbacks.I really believe what Clinton and Hilary's belief to improve the system gradually if you are not satified with it,sometimes the system you don't like may be the more practical way for development, sometimes you can not be sure you are absolutely right.
2)Yes, PM is not a easy job. But what else is? Cleaning the street? Taking care of the AIDS patients? Providing legal service to the people whose rights were violated by the government? In fact, those jobs are much more difficult than the PM's completely! But we can see those people are so helpless and they were even being poisoned by some evil merchants, just because the PM NEVER does his job. Of course you can think of exchanging job with his. A lot of young people do. That's why every year we have huge crowd applying for the government positions--almost everyone in China knows once you are in the government, you will have less chance to get the luck with those poisoned milk powders, or something else alike.
I don't think PM never did his job. since my own typing errors you mistaked my intention that i actually prefer not to exchange job with his although anyway i have no chance at all. Why so many people are crazy about to get a Civil Servant Job, because China is still......, which i think is the situation and stage of development that China are now in.
3) Yes, his words can really fool some people that the PM does have a good heart for the people. But I bet 田文华 can speak much better than he does. Just as they sing in Evita: He did nothing for years. But he DID speak a lot, and a lot, all in vain. Can you tell us what his achievements are in his terms? Anyway, whatever you imagine him, I had done that too. But what he said to the press about 胡佳 and 杨春林's arrest in the earlier time this year, eventually broke the little remained good impression of him in my heart. He lied with no sign of regret or feeling shame in front of the cameras. And that's when I came to learn that he's really good at ACTING than actions.
PM HU is a good PM,that my belief and it may be wrong and it may right, at least some ordinary Chinese hold the same opinion.
To talk with you is really a good experience. Have a good day.
引用(yufu @ 25 Sep 2008, 8:59)
引用(Phil @ 24 Sep 2008, 11:23)
Phil按：即使温家宝是真心说的最后两句话，那他也绝对会失望的。不要跟我说温家宝不知道国务院中央的特供中心，不要跟我说温家宝从没有享受过在生活上甚至各个方面的特权。一个能睁着眼睛，表情严肃真诚地告诉记者政府在奥运前没有逮捕异见人士，政府“不应该有任何特权”，但是政府大牢里关着异见人士，他自己和下属们吃着特供食品，享受着各类特权的总理，只能是一个会演戏的总理......他更应该去好莱坞发展，而不是国务院！
温家宝当然不会是完美的了，要不怎么能成为共产党政客啊。
我是相信温家宝应该会被百姓记住的，因为在他任内，取消了农业税，农村基层政府提留没了，农村小孩上学不用交学费了。
比朱大嘴，李三峡，赵六四任内减轻农民负担天天喊，年年抓，越抓越重，不是一个数量级的。
当然了，知识分子同志们可能更关心什么异见人士，几个人的特权。
20世纪80年代之前的两千年，中国一直是农业社会，两个标志
(1) 农业人口在总人口中占绝对多数
(2) 农业经济产值在全国经济产值中占多数
这种经济结构下，政府必然需要向农业征税来维持政府的运营。
现在农业总产值在GDP比重中降到10%-15%，但却需要养活8亿农民，农民收入内卷化逼得大量农村青年劳动力到城市里当"民工"；农村地方政府的横征暴敛造成了越来越多的农民和基层政府的暴力冲突（参见《中国农民调查》）；而乡，村，镇，县层层截留农业税后到中央的手里只剩下一丁点的农业税收在中央财政中无足重轻，因为中央在能源，通讯，房地产等新兴行业的收入早就远远超过农业税收。
看看60年来对农民的制度性歧视：
户籍制度：申请城市里政府职位必须要有城市户口，到城里只能"暂住"；子女不能进入城市里的中小学；农村饥荒也不能进城要饭，影响城市形象；
剪刀差： 低价从农民手里收粮，一部分卖给城市，另一部分高价买到国外，赚取差价（即使是农村饥荒造成尸横遍野的1959年，中央还在出口粮食）
教育投入低： 农村教育投入低造成低比例农村人口能获得高等教育的机会；教育价格上涨把这个机会变得更小（本人读大学时两个同年级学生的家长因为无力承担学费自杀）；教育程度低造成大部分农村青年进入城市后只能找到低技能的职位(城里人俗称"民工")，找不到工作的很容易走入犯罪的道路甚至发展成黑社会。
医疗投入低：农村老人的一个常见话题是得重病的时候如何自杀以免过高的医疗费拖垮子女（参见李昌平《我向总理说实话》）
即使取消农业税也无力改变农民实际收入在整个社会中的下降趋势（不断上涨的基尼指数可以证明），今后几年不但不用交农业税，而且可能发展到靠政府补贴才能保障农村"稳定"的局面。
农村减税这种避不得已拿出的小伎俩还好意思拿出来炫耀？如果对农民的制度性歧视不该，农村的"稳定"恐怕都无法保障了。
引用(pipisy @ 25 Sep 2008, 14:31)
看看60年来对农民的制度性歧视：
户籍制度：申请城市里政府职位必须要有城市户口，到城里只能"暂住"；子女不能进入城市里的中小学；农村饥荒也不能进城要饭，影响城市形象；
剪刀差： 低价从农民手里收粮，一部分卖给城市，另一部分高价买到国外，赚取差价（即使是农村饥荒造成尸横遍野的1959年，中央还在出口粮食）
教育投入低： 农村教育投入低造成低比例农村人口能获得高等教育的机会；教育价格上涨把这个机会变得更小（本人读大学时两个同年级学生的家长因为无力承担学费自杀）；教育程度低造成大部分农村青年进入城市后只能找到低技能的职位(城里人俗称"民工")，找不到工作的很容易走入犯罪的道路甚至发展成黑社会。
医疗投入低：农村老人的一个常见话题是得重病的时候如何自杀以免过高的医疗费拖垮子女（参见李昌平《我向总理说实话》）
即使取消农业税也无力改变农民实际收入在整个社会中的下降趋势（不断上涨的基尼指数可以证明），今后几年不但不用交农业税，而且可能发展到靠政府补贴才能保障农村"稳定"的局面。
农村减税这种避不得已拿出的小伎俩还好意思拿出来炫耀？如果对农民的制度性歧视不该，农村的"稳定"恐怕都无法保障了。
户籍制度：申请城市里政府职位必须要有城市户口，到城里只能"暂住"；子女不能进入城市里的中小学；农村饥荒也不能进城要饭，影响城市形象；
剪刀差： 低价从农民手里收粮，一部分卖给城市，另一部分高价买到国外，赚取差价（即使是农村饥荒造成尸横遍野的1959年，中央还在出口粮食）
教育投入低： 农村教育投入低造成低比例农村人口能获得高等教育的机会；教育价格上涨把这个机会变得更小（本人读大学时两个同年级学生的家长因为无力承担学费自杀）；教育程度低造成大部分农村青年进入城市后只能找到低技能的职位(城里人俗称"民工")，找不到工作的很容易走入犯罪的道路甚至发展成黑社会。
医疗投入低：农村老人的一个常见话题是得重病的时候如何自杀以免过高的医疗费拖垮子女（参见李昌平《我向总理说实话》）
即使取消农业税也无力改变农民实际收入在整个社会中的下降趋势（不断上涨的基尼指数可以证明），今后几年不但不用交农业税，而且可能发展到靠政府补贴才能保障农村"稳定"的局面。
农村减税这种避不得已拿出的小伎俩还好意思拿出来炫耀？如果对农民的制度性歧视不该，农村的"稳定"恐怕都无法保障了。
呵呵，关系到中国广大农民的事，在您眼里就成了小伎俩了。可是就这小伎俩前几届政府不是也没干啊。你也知道那些户籍制度，剪刀差，教育投入低，医疗投入低是60年来的。医疗，剪刀差，这届政府在开始改。可是农产品长了点价，一帮知识分子不是在嚎叫吗。
靠政府补贴才能保障农村"稳定"的局面， 不应该吗？
乌烟瘴气，群魔起舞， 难得一见呀
继续继续 I am off 中国新闻.
继续继续 I am off 中国新闻.
赞同“演戏说”
取消农业税其实是欠考虑的，世界各国基本都收农业税，如果取消了，一旦以后要收，就很难，正确的做法应该是降低到非常低的水平，对后继者有弹性。
Dear Franklee, I am really lost by your words... Who is "DR. HU" and who is "PM HU"?
Anyway, as I've said, you can image whatever you want to for PM Wen. You can picture him as some poor kind people surrounded by a group of PARTY wolves howling at him. But what I am trying to say is that I've seen him howling too, publicly. And HE did NOTHING to get things better but worse for years.
yufu，温诗人上任到取消农业税用了多久？这事情是他主导的么？胡锦涛不点头，政治局不通过，他敢做么？再说，这是他应该做的。难道中国人民要一直为了能过上正常的生活而感谢那些实际上在剥夺他们权利的人么？
他会被记住的，毫无疑问，因为他在民生改善上一败涂地，在政府改革上一败涂地，在政治清廉上也一败涂地（查查他夫人在做什么吧）。
Anyway, as I've said, you can image whatever you want to for PM Wen. You can picture him as some poor kind people surrounded by a group of PARTY wolves howling at him. But what I am trying to say is that I've seen him howling too, publicly. And HE did NOTHING to get things better but worse for years.
yufu，温诗人上任到取消农业税用了多久？这事情是他主导的么？胡锦涛不点头，政治局不通过，他敢做么？再说，这是他应该做的。难道中国人民要一直为了能过上正常的生活而感谢那些实际上在剥夺他们权利的人么？
他会被记住的，毫无疑问，因为他在民生改善上一败涂地，在政府改革上一败涂地，在政治清廉上也一败涂地（查查他夫人在做什么吧）。
引用(Phil @ 26 Sep 2008, 1:58)
Dear Franklee, I am really lost by your words... Who is "DR. HU" and who is "PM HU"?
Anyway, as I've said, you can image whatever you want to for PM Wen. You can picture him as some poor kind people surrounded by a group of PARTY wolves howling at him. But what I am trying to say is that I've seen him howling too, publicly. And HE did NOTHING to get things better but worse for years.
yufu，温诗人上任到取消农业税用了多久？这事情是他主导的么？胡锦涛不点头，政治局不通过，他敢做么？再说，这是他应该做的。难道中国人民要一直为了能过上正常的生活而感谢那些实际上在剥夺他们权利的人么？
他会被记住的，毫无疑问，因为他在民生改善上一败涂地，在政府改革上一败涂地，在政治清廉上也一败涂地（查查他夫人在做什么吧）。
Anyway, as I've said, you can image whatever you want to for PM Wen. You can picture him as some poor kind people surrounded by a group of PARTY wolves howling at him. But what I am trying to say is that I've seen him howling too, publicly. And HE did NOTHING to get things better but worse for years.
yufu，温诗人上任到取消农业税用了多久？这事情是他主导的么？胡锦涛不点头，政治局不通过，他敢做么？再说，这是他应该做的。难道中国人民要一直为了能过上正常的生活而感谢那些实际上在剥夺他们权利的人么？
他会被记住的，毫无疑问，因为他在民生改善上一败涂地，在政府改革上一败涂地，在政治清廉上也一败涂地（查查他夫人在做什么吧）。
呵呵，你这几个一败涂地很有意思啊。他夫人在做什么重要吗？嗯，有的部长夫人在其任内还烧锅炉呢。
他夫人在做什么不重要？呵呵。看来89年那帮反官倒的人真是吃饱了没事儿干......人家官的家属做什么重要么？他们就是把国库掏空了也不重要啊。
引用(yufu @ 25 Sep 2008, 16:36)
引用(pipisy @ 25 Sep 2008, 14:31)
看看60年来对农民的制度性歧视：
户籍制度：申请城市里政府职位必须要有城市户口，到城里只能"暂住"；子女不能进入城市里的中小学；农村饥荒也不能进城要饭，影响城市形象；
剪刀差： 低价从农民手里收粮，一部分卖给城市，另一部分高价买到国外，赚取差价（即使是农村饥荒造成尸横遍野的1959年，中央还在出口粮食）
教育投入低： 农村教育投入低造成低比例农村人口能获得高等教育的机会；教育价格上涨把这个机会变得更小（本人读大学时两个同年级学生的家长因为无力承担学费自杀）；教育程度低造成大部分农村青年进入城市后只能找到低技能的职位(城里人俗称"民工")，找不到工作的很容易走入犯罪的道路甚至发展成黑社会。
医疗投入低：农村老人的一个常见话题是得重病的时候如何自杀以免过高的医疗费拖垮子女（参见李昌平《我向总理说实话》）
即使取消农业税也无力改变农民实际收入在整个社会中的下降趋势（不断上涨的基尼指数可以证明），今后几年不但不用交农业税，而且可能发展到靠政府补贴才能保障农村"稳定"的局面。
农村减税这种避不得已拿出的小伎俩还好意思拿出来炫耀？如果对农民的制度性歧视不该，农村的"稳定"恐怕都无法保障了。
户籍制度：申请城市里政府职位必须要有城市户口，到城里只能"暂住"；子女不能进入城市里的中小学；农村饥荒也不能进城要饭，影响城市形象；
剪刀差： 低价从农民手里收粮，一部分卖给城市，另一部分高价买到国外，赚取差价（即使是农村饥荒造成尸横遍野的1959年，中央还在出口粮食）
教育投入低： 农村教育投入低造成低比例农村人口能获得高等教育的机会；教育价格上涨把这个机会变得更小（本人读大学时两个同年级学生的家长因为无力承担学费自杀）；教育程度低造成大部分农村青年进入城市后只能找到低技能的职位(城里人俗称"民工")，找不到工作的很容易走入犯罪的道路甚至发展成黑社会。
医疗投入低：农村老人的一个常见话题是得重病的时候如何自杀以免过高的医疗费拖垮子女（参见李昌平《我向总理说实话》）
即使取消农业税也无力改变农民实际收入在整个社会中的下降趋势（不断上涨的基尼指数可以证明），今后几年不但不用交农业税，而且可能发展到靠政府补贴才能保障农村"稳定"的局面。
农村减税这种避不得已拿出的小伎俩还好意思拿出来炫耀？如果对农民的制度性歧视不该，农村的"稳定"恐怕都无法保障了。
呵呵，关系到中国广大农民的事，在您眼里就成了小伎俩了。可是就这小伎俩前几届政府不是也没干啊。你也知道那些户籍制度，剪刀差，教育投入低，医疗投入低是60年来的。医疗，剪刀差，这届政府在开始改。可是农产品长了点价，一帮知识分子不是在嚎叫吗。
靠政府补贴才能保障农村"稳定"的局面， 不应该吗？
重复一遍，至今还保留的农业剪刀差实质上和收农业税没有什么区别。
在制度性歧视面前， 减税和补贴的影响力非常小，根本无力挽救农民社会地位下滑的趋势，所以只能称为小伎俩。
作为政府领导人，连国民基本医疗，教育的平等都做不到，怎么还好意思在镜头面前抹眼泪？（历史上“亲民”是政治人物掩盖自己执政无能的最常用手段）
农民不是却少补贴，他们是需要能保障他们在社会中获得平等的地位的政治制度。
看过一部台湾人拍的纪录片《蒋经国》，从那些资料和受访者的回忆来说，蒋经国也亲民得很。但是结果呢？蒋家王朝还是被无情终结......
引用(Phil @ 26 Sep 2008, 9:21)
看过一部台湾人拍的纪录片《蒋经国》，从那些资料和受访者的回忆来说，蒋经国也亲民得很。但是结果呢？蒋家王朝还是被无情终结......
你是说蒋家王朝在大陆还是在台湾被无情终结？
在台湾蒋经国可是死在任上的，他也没想让儿子继承阿
支持phil
中国还有像phil这样的人，说明了中国还有希望。
中国现在的官场到处弥漫着“非正义、欺诈、贪污、虚伪、谎言”。一个正直的人是无法长期呆在里面而不被驱逐的。
中国还有像phil这样的人，说明了中国还有希望。
中国现在的官场到处弥漫着“非正义、欺诈、贪污、虚伪、谎言”。一个正直的人是无法长期呆在里面而不被驱逐的。
英国的医疗是政府开支，一切中毒，环境污染产生的疾病，都是政府买单，所以政府才有各种政策和法律，防止这些事情的发生，烟和酒是对健康有损害的，税所以也非常高。所以必须尽快建立一个真正的全民医疗体系。
引用(yufu @ 26 Sep 2008, 19:30)
引用(Phil @ 26 Sep 2008, 9:21)
看过一部台湾人拍的纪录片《蒋经国》，从那些资料和受访者的回忆来说，蒋经国也亲民得很。但是结果呢？蒋家王朝还是被无情终结......
你是说蒋家王朝在大陆还是在台湾被无情终结？
在台湾蒋经国可是死在任上的，他也没想让儿子继承阿
在台湾。
蒋经国死在任上不错啊，所以说蒋经国的“亲民”程度是不是更terrible？
他是没想让儿子继承，蒋经国是在外头待过的人，见过世面，而且当时的世界政治环境也告诉他，如果他做那种打算的话，等待蒋家的结果是什么。
yufu，有机会看看这部片子吧，尤其是看看在蒋经国临死前，他看到的台湾和蒋家是怎样的，就知道他为什么要做那样的决定了。
引用(Phil @ 27 Sep 2008, 6:26)
引用(yufu @ 26 Sep 2008, 19:30)
引用(Phil @ 26 Sep 2008, 9:21)
看过一部台湾人拍的纪录片《蒋经国》，从那些资料和受访者的回忆来说，蒋经国也亲民得很。但是结果呢？蒋家王朝还是被无情终结......
你是说蒋家王朝在大陆还是在台湾被无情终结？
在台湾蒋经国可是死在任上的，他也没想让儿子继承阿
在台湾。
蒋经国死在任上不错啊，所以说蒋经国的“亲民”程度是不是更terrible？
他是没想让儿子继承，蒋经国是在外头待过的人，见过世面，而且当时的世界政治环境也告诉他，如果他做那种打算的话，等待蒋家的结果是什么。
yufu，有机会看看这部片子吧，尤其是看看在蒋经国临死前，他看到的台湾和蒋家是怎样的，就知道他为什么要做那样的决定了。
没看到这段和蒋家王朝还是被无情终结有啥逻辑关系。
那就慢慢理解吧，take your time，no hurry。
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